How to Save Basic Arenas

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:37 pm

I have been thinking about the problem with basic arena play since I saw the newest poll on whether or not there should be a new round of arena closures. I am not in favor of closing arenas; in fact, as a long-time player I thought it might help to explain the dilemma we find ourselves in and offer up an idea to improve the situation.

As everyone knows, Duelmasters isn't the game it used to be. In it's early stages it was almost entirely based on the arena level. The number one goal of every manager was to have the DM, period. Goals such as top team, popularity leader, etc were secondary. Most managers were judged by their peers by their team records -- there was no other way to differentiate managerial ability. A great team record in a notoriously tough arena enhanced those perceptions. Though information was severely limited in those days by today's standards, managers in opposing arenas knew one another by the reputation of their trademark teams. What prompted the evolution of the game was the tournaments. The sole purpose of the tournaments was to give managers a chance to see how warriors of equal experience would fare against one another in an inter-arena format. It was all about bragging rights. Period. (Oh, ok, and to make some money for RSI). The success of the tourneys prompted serious managers to make an effort to compete and do well in them, if for no other reason than to keep a warrior's developement up-to-date with their peers in their home arena.

The single most significant change affecting the health of the arenas since then has been the tourney prizes themselves. Think about this; since the first prizes were offered, we have seen:

a) the number of arenas significantly increased in response to managers needing a place to run new teams

b) the advent of the sandbagging strategy

c) increased emphasis on tourney success and individual accomplishment

d) advent of transfer arenas/ DM-82 for tourney teams

e) the number of teams in arenas dropping to the point that necessitated the first round of arena closures

I am NOT placing the demise of basic arenas solely on the increased significance of the tourneys and realize there are other factors involved in the state of today's game (such as overall participation and the game's longevity). What I am saying is that the nature of the game has changed, and it is based on the tourneys, rather than on the arenas. RSI did not do this (intentionally), we, the players, did this ourselves. I am not sure we can ever bring arena play back to what it used to be, even on a limited basis. I do have a simple idea, as follows:

Recognizing that the game has changed, I think RSI needs to implement a change in their rate structure for basic arenas. The only thing that currently promotes spikes in basic arena play anymore are the varied contests offered in select arenas. Players have basically said they will particpate in basic arena play if properly motivated. Keeping this in mind, I would like to see RSI make these changes:

a) Drop the $3.25 base charge in basic arenas whenever a team runs a full stable (all 5 warriors). This will give manager's a financial incentive to run a full aquad. If you choose to run less than a full squad, then the base charge remains in effect.

b) In return, drop the free fights for arena awards. In my opinion, you have to give something to get something. I would propose retaining the three free turns of fight credit for teams garnering 6 or more awards -- you would really have to do well to earn them and should be rewarded for your efforts. Dropping the free fights would make it more costly for for managers to run single warrior teams. This isn't meant to punish managers who choose to do so, it's meant to increase the overall size and health of the arenas.

c) If you are going to promote full basic arenas in this fashion, you need to make the transfer arenas more attractive as well for those who choose to use them. Eliminate the $3.25 base charge per team; I didn't get 7 different envelopes with my DM-82 results last turn, why should I get charged a base charge for each team? Quit gouging us, charge a singe base charge of $3.25 (or $5, it's up for debate) + $1.50 per warrior. I would be surprised if it hurt RSI's bottom line -- most manager's would use the savings on new team roll-ups.

These are just one man's ideas. I have others, based on RSI's willingness to support arena contests -- if they are willing to pass on favorites info, +1 skill prizes, etc. to contest organizers based on arena participation, there is no reason why such awards couldn't be given in lieu of free fights.

There it is, a little something to think about and comment on. Constructive criticism is always welcome.

Darrell / Mannequin

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:29 am

The point of early DM was to be the top team, as top team used to play for free.

Kill DM 82, there's how many hundreds of active teams in there that used to be scattered all over?

Good luck with getting them to lower fees or encourage arena play. It's totally obvious, especially since the recent tourney changes, that tourney-only play is encouraged. Would you rather enter strats and run an arena for 100 warriors every other week for $215, or 4 times a year spend an entire weekend entering and running 2500 guys for a tourney and take in $17,500? Especially since most people's DM budget will stay the same, dough that doesn't get spent in the arena goes right to rollups and more tourney entries. Can't blame anyone for trying to consolidate their work

If you want to revitalize tourney play you'll need to be more drastic. Try consolidating all the fast arenas down to 9 arenas(three for each region(destroy lirith kai, sorry to all 4 of you lirith kai people)). Allow 3 teams per and allow an occasional transfer period(like after the tourney, so you can run your new tourney team in your arena). Leave the slows like they are, unless there's less than 10 teams(most slow arenas look healthy tho I think, haven't looked). Charge an extra $0.25 for each turn in 82 for being an antisocial lazy bastard.

Anyways, I gotta fill out buncha turns for 82 now, so I'm out.

Advanced Expert Poster Joined: Nov 24, 2003 Posts: 181

Ya know.. I kinda like some of what Mannequin suggested. There should be an advantage to running a full stable and the tradeoff in the free fights is an excellent idea. However, not to sound pessimistic but I do believe RSI has the same turn charges now as when they started which means in damn near 20 years they have not had an increase in turn charges, so I think the likelihood of a decrease is not good, although the tradeoff of free fights is a good compromise idea.
But tourneys are the king lately, with small pockets of active arenas(36, 22, 18, 11 immediatly spring to mind) but alas way too many sandboxes.
I do not want to see arena closures either, I think that is just one more step to the slooooooooow demise of the game that appears to be on life support.
I endorse Mannequins ideas 100% however, because I think there would be an increase in arena participation, and prolly in the long term tourney participation which for the bottom line of any business is Sales/Revenue.

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:38 pm

Why don't they just have some arenas that you can't have teams run in tournaments. The prizes for these arenas could be better than the others, like tournament prizes. Maybe alot of managers would run in these arenas knowing there were no sandbaggers and it would mean they would match their skill against the skill of other managers. I don't know.

-Balzar, uninformed manager of the Thundercats

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:18 pm

Closing of the transfer arenas would do something for regular arenas I think. I presently run in one at the moment and it is so typical of them all: no personal ads, DM columns, player interaction on any level. Dragonhead (DM 72) is the exception to the rule as of late

I run my team there because I had no other option. Instead of settling in a regular arena and contributing to it, I had to settle them in the 71st layer of the DM Abyss (aka transfer arena 71). Since I only run in slow arenas with the exception of DM 100, my options are even fewer if I want to start a new team.

Closing the transfers and maybe raising the number of teams allowed in regular arenas might help. Not sure what the right answer is at this point. I won't be a dead horse and talk about how emphasis has shifted over the years, especially since I started in '96, but maybe its just a shift we are going to have to adjust to and make the most of it.

Another point most people do not often address is that the game has few mysteries left. Some have lost interest because there are no new challenges. The numbers have been crunched to death, and while there are still some intangibles that can be researched, all the major information has been gathered.

Does anyone think that a new element to the game would spark more interest? Perhaps new weapons, a new style (though I can't think of one for the life of me....oh yeah, JEDI!), or something along those lines. Maybe it could be tested in an arena for awhile to see how it pans out, rather than turning the DM world upside down.

Just my thoughts.

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:21 am

Maybe a silly question from my end--to the managers that enjoy basic arena play. Why not start a team in DM 82? Maybe if you sent your teams to DM 82 and treated it like a normal arena (writing personals and such) you'd have fun? There's nothing wrong with DM 82 that makes it a bad arena for basic play is there? It would be like the old days--you wouldn't know the style of every single warrior in the arena. You'd have to pay attention to the tourney sandbaggers, etc.

ArchMaster Poster Joined: Jul 17, 2002 Posts: 1054

Really hard to make challenges in DM 82 though because a lot of warriors pop in and out to get 1 or 2 fights to get to a tourney break point. So there is not that much consistancy on who is fighting each turn.

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:56 pm

I know this was discussed before, but....

What I would like is an arena like the old days. No tournaments for those warriors. Managers who would like to run a full team (no prepping or timing for tournies since these guys don't fight in tournies), and are into writing PA's would be good. Everyone would know people's FE's. Don't post the newsletter online.

I know that if an arena like this started, I would add the $20 a month to play in it.

Just my thoughts....

-Chad / Kellumbo

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 3:10 pm

Well, one good thing I've heard is that RSI will be running ads again soon, like now. Hopefully, this will add some competition to the remaining arenas. I've felt like 30 extra bodies would really change the current state of the game. If RSI were to close more arenas I feel like they should just consolidate down to a very small number and all arenas should basically be wide open as far as teams per account. Furthermore, I think under these particular circumstances there should only be one turn charge. They wouldn't be wasting money on paper, envelopes, and man hours. I think they should have done it last time instead of limiting it to 3 and putting unfair stipulations on it. However, I am currently presenting an idea that has all but been implemented and will hopefully allow arenas to retain some of their more dedicated managers while slowing overcrowding.

Master Poster Joined: Jul 12, 2002 Posts: 237 Location: FL

the problem is that in the old days this was a game played by teens and young adults... that age group has moved on... the younger side of our playerbase is basically in their mid to late 20s...

Most of us have grown past being excited over getting the Duelmaster... What the game needs is new players to revitalize the arena... and not a trickling of players but an influx like the free rollup in some card game magazine... but the influx needs to be a bit more lasting and consistence... without the new blood arena contraction will not really recapture the old days...

Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 1:56 pm

Managerr wrote:

Maybe a silly question from my end--to the managers that enjoy basic arena play. Why not start a team in DM 82? Maybe if you sent your teams to DM 82 and treated it like a normal arena (writing personals and such) you'd have fun? There's nothing wrong with DM 82 that makes it a bad arena for basic play is there? It would be like the old days--you wouldn't know the style of every single warrior in the arena. You'd have to pay attention to the tourney sandbaggers, etc.

It's no fun to have your 2 fight non-tourney guy match up with an Uber tourney warrior who went 5-3 rooks, 8-3 apps, and 8-3 inits; making his first arena appearance with 16FE. Nor is it fun when he down TV challenges(now a 17FE challenger init or adept) you the next turn going for an easy win while training a stat. I don't know about the rest of you, but when I fight a guy in the arena who's gotten 10 or so FE since his last appearance in the arena, I jack up that KD and aim a vital.

And old sandbaggers are quite different from new ones. The old ones would have to run 3 fights to be at the top of their class, and the arena ranking system would have some time to get them properly classed. New ones can hit the FE breakpoints and not even have to fight 1 turn.

But I'm sure you'd like it, having a regular group of people running in 82, so you can rape them with challenges that probably won't be avoided. I'd like it too, but I doubt you'll get a line of people volunteering to play in 82 like its a normal arena. And good luck finding your team in the rankings, has anyone told RSI that the #-ing system is not working in there?(for how many years now?)

That's just how the game is gonna be now--if you want to play for the basic arena, hit the slow arenas.

Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:02 pm

Well stated, Pip.

pipthetroll wrote:

if you want to play for the basic arena, hit the slow arenas.

No doubt. This is the quote of the day.

Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:04 pm

Although I'm basically new blood myself started around 98 i think. We need the new blood and we need to help the new blood to be competitive. Not necesarily give them your super secrets but give them good tips. Then when they talk trash (and they are going to) beat em down but not so bad they quit. Lord knows I talked some trash (isnt that right Hammer) Now I do most of my trash talking with with established managers like all of COL (Hi guys)>

Dropping the base charge for the 2nd and 3rd FULL TEAM that run in an arena may be a way to get the established players a little more involved. I know if I could run 2 or three full teams in one of my arenas and only pay one base charge I would transfer and activate at least two teams today probably more. Do it like ADM If I run 10 warriors in one arena I Pay for each warrior but only 1 base fee.

Before I sign off I will repeat get more kids and maybe have acouple arenas just for arena play no tourney warriors

The wiz that is Fiz

Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:40 pm

Having read the responses it's apparent to me that "basic arena play" means different things to different people. I tried to suggest an outline that would be beneficial to all, rather than one side or another. There have been a couple of suggestions thrown out that I would like to respond to.

While I am not surprised by Manager's suggestion of giving DM-82 a try, I have to agree with Pip's reasoning on why it's not a great idea -- Dwes Eg is the antithesis of what they want in a basic arena. There are a lot of players who would like to be in large arenas with teams that run full stables every turn. Teams that don't place emphasis on tourney timing and run whatever designs strike their fancy (rather than designs based solely on tourney success). Active arenas like this would be sure to promote interaction between players, in spotlights, personals, etc. All it takes is effort. The point I tried to make about dropping the base charge for running a full team is that it would give you a financial incentive to run a warrior to graduation, like a 12-14-10-15-17-9-7 LU with nice bonuses. Definitely not a tourney warrior, but one that might be worth running in ADM if it had nice favorites. For those who have chosen to focus on tourneys, my suggestion for dropping the individual team base charges in DM-82 should keep them happy. They can continue to play the game as they like.

Another suggestion was allowing multiple teams in arenas -- while this sounds reasonable from a consolidation stand-point, it really doesn't seem to work well. I have 3 teams in DM-1 & DM-7. I usually run all three in DM-1, and rarely ran all three in DM-7. I have never found this to be fun at all. In DM-1, I time them for tourneys and run some odd-ball stuff for fun. It's not much fun competing with yourself in an arena. I think most people would agree that they would get more enjoyment out of a single team in an arena. I think if you wanted to run more than one team in an arena, drop them in DM-82 and knock yourself out.

The main reasoning for having a financial alternative to restoring basic arena play is based on RSI's willingness to support arena contests when they feel the participation is high enough. If basic arenas were in better shape RSI wouldn't be asking for a minimum number of teams before granting prizes for arena contests ( I know, if all the arenas were healthy they probably wouldn't support contests at all with prizes). It's all about money. If they cut you a deal on the price, you would probably play more. Pip suggested players gaming budgets wouldn't change, yet I have a feeling that spending would go up simply because more warriors would be active in the arenas and tourneys.

Darrell / Mannequin

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:25 pm

Well, since new bodies are exciting. I'll count for one, Balzar two, and JE, since he's returning from a pretty long hiatus, I would consider three. I think Youngblood had a pretty good idea with his Old School arena. When you really think about it, the game is not just what RSI makes it, it is what us as managers make it. Open a new arena, toss some guys in it, have a constant 15 turn contest with a side ante of some rollup sheets for Most wins overall, for most warriors graduated (Perhaps with a sliding scale for style. Of course, this wouldn't work at the beginning.), and maybe a small prize for most lines of personal ads. I personally know an alliance of punching bags that might be in for this.

The Circle of Order would probably show up, too. Wink

Namenlos